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乌托邦の畅想

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回复:乌托邦の畅想

First of all, I don't think Utopia is a very apt description for the system. That being said, I am not sure whether there's a NEED for the platform described. Yes, the platform in and of itself is theoretically sound on the macro level in terms of technology: There are already various p2p protocols that we can latch on to or possibly modify and apply towards building this system. However, similar centrally forums are already in place, most notably the various -chan forums in Japan and US, where anonymity is prioritized and administration is kept to bare minimum. I am not sure whether this system will differentiate itself enough to carve a niche market out of the ever blooming internet community.

In addition, there are still problems with a p2p-based discussion platform. As the platform grows, the data size will only grow, not shrink. Once you hit a population ceiling, the platform will simply slow to a crawl until it can no longer sustain itself. Database will only grow larger,and the same cannot be said for population size. Furthermore, while there is a trend towards info storage over the cloud, I do not think that the market is ready for the shift, nor the technology mature enough for it to happen for another 5 or 10 years. As far as I know, Google is the only company that comes anywhere nears this approach for permanent data warehousing, and even then they have multiple duplicate backbone servers around the globe. Let us not forget the 13 root servers located around a globe. Unless you decide to build a competing network infrastructure from the grounds up, there is no way to eliminate the reliance on those servers. However, it is not impossible to coincide the launch of such platform with the switchover to ipv6. The key, as I have said, is still how much of a need there is for this extremely niche market as for the majority of the population, general forums will suffice.

There are also ideological loopholes with this system as well. First of all, the complete lack of administration will never be possible. It has been tried both on virtualized platforms and in politics. You could say that you can turn the other way when someone tries to shoot you, but it's not going to prevent you from getting shot. Yes, there is no harm in not viewing an anonymous message, but what about hackers? Business intelligence? With the scope of the platform you have in mind, it's a goldmine for data mining and warehousing.

Even if you completely ignore the client side administration, you still have to invest a significant amount into developing and administering the platform. There's an awfully thin line between utopia and anarchy, and realistically, there is none. It is due to the impossibility of utopia that it is conceptualized in the first place. The relationship and evolution of marxism, socialism, and communism will probably reflect the development of such platform; in fact, it is most likely why forums are created in the first place.

I agree with what Wittenfield said towards the end of his post. You are trying to address a fundamental flaw in human nature with technology. Yes, believe in the general public. However, there are those that will fail your expectations or my expectations. Hell, even all of us in KFC have very different sets of ideologies. This is why we have a judicial system in place. Instead of blindly believing that everyone will do good, it's safer and more sound to establish a set of norms and laws, and punish those who crosses that line. It's two very simple concepts that have gradually evolved, almost instinctively, over the development of human civilization.

This system is impractical and unrealistic. Yes, it is stating the obvious: the more ambitious the scope, the more unrealistic it becomes. I believe your concept of virtual Utopia stems from the desire to eliminate administration and central management altogether and have the system operate totally independent of human influence. However, many technological and sociological factors, a few of which were pointed out by Wittenfield and me, essentially renders such platform improbable if not outright impossible at the current time. User reliance (which, in my opinion, is even worse than central governance from a bureaucracy standpoint), anonymity structuring, physical limitations, and stability are just a few among many of the issues that needs to be panned out. Like the original utopia, the idea itself is an oxymoron: In order to eliminate database administration, you need to get rid of the database itself. However, if the database never existed in the first place, there wouldn't be a need for database administration.

Developing a p2p platform simply places this reliance on every user instead of the selected few and does not solve this what is fundamentally a chicken and egg problem. No matter how descriptive and lifelike Tolkien and Herbert shape their worlds, we still know they are fiction: it's a lot easier to describe a facet of a whole. Get 10 blind men to describe an elephant, and you'd get 10 different answers. Same concept here. A more viable approach is to modify, in your mind, the closest thing to your virtual utopia and gather a team to direct it towards the direction you desire as outlined above. The end result will probably look nothing like what we have discussed in this post, but then again, it wouldn't have anyways even if you develop it from the grounds up.
最后编辑Makenshi 最后编辑于 2010-02-21 04:41:02
本主题由 版主 Blackの墨 于 2012/9/23 12:35:53 执行 主题分类 操作
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回复:乌托邦の畅想

我中文渣,别打我
看不懂谷歌翻译,不然就当偶自己消遣自己吧 
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    世界は美しく。
    そして,人生はかくも素晴らしい
    TOP

    回复:乌托邦の畅想

    整天在中文论坛上打英文论文也不太好,我叫尽量长话短说吧
    首先感谢Prz大大认真回复我的英文帖
    基于各点技术上以及逻辑上的拉锯战我就暂且放在一边.我原先举出個个例子想表达的就是,无论此平台如何分散,如何反集中,某些部份仍然对于物理上有所依靠.Root Server便是一个很好的例子.若要真正做到"更高层的权力机构也无法干预,"你必须要做出一个能和目前网路互相抗衡的infrastructure(构造?),完全p2p化而消除dns等集中性值服务.我所提出个人认为比较可行的方案就是向您所说的,接洽一些现有p2p protocol创始人并加以延伸.不求完全与三次元成份隔绝,但是能免则免.

    其次,此平台上accountability似乎已经不是很大的问题.因为管理趋向个人化.accountability可以帮助个人更简洁,更容易获的作出管理,但是在一个真正utopia,效率至上,自行分类以及过滤比选择性看谁发的帖还有效.主要的目的是想要获得自己想要的资讯及言论,而不是隐蔽掉自己不想看到的帖子.

    对于数据的保存是我个人的误解.但是,此问题还是有考旧的价值.我原本以为您所说的p2p是各自永久性提供各自的资源.若是如此,就向我讲的,it will simply slow to a crawl until it can no longer sustain itself.Wiki镜像并不是个很好地例子,因为wiki只是你个人使用,而不是需要将数据传向世界各地.然而,若是所有的人都需要保留此平台上所有资讯而达成redundancy,这有让人觉得未免太浪费资源,不符合经济效益.不过,既然目前这属于理论阶段,可能也还不需要深入探讨.

    基本上,我想表达的是,无论是什么系统,到一定规模之后难免会遇到可扩展性上的问题.Facebook, Twitter都是很好的例子.纵然值得一试,研发新的技术平台未必是最佳方案.不可否认的,中央管制的确影响一个论坛的多元化并引导其发展方向 (just like different types of government),但是我们不能确认管理体制是阻止论坛规模发展的唯一/最大因素,也不能断言说任何一种新平台(topological or technological)并不会冒出一些其它相同会影响scalibility的问题,以至于我个人认为这是一种治标不治本的做法.我知道天天做调理人很烦也没什么意义,但是凡事都要有一套方针,有个方向.管理人不去管它而变成人人需要管理是种事倍功半的做法.就算平台真正稳固壮大,其发展真的就能展现它所谓的可扩展性吗?

    队不起偶知道偶说长话短说的
    老实说我用中文打这篇才真的是事倍功半,写出来还是有一半用英文
    最后编辑Makenshi 最后编辑于 2010-02-21 12:37:40
    世界は美しく。
    そして,人生はかくも素晴らしい
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    回复: 乌托邦の畅想

    原帖由 粘土火星 于 2010/2/22 10:49:00 发表
    总之可以弄一个原型出来看看效果www

    我支持www
    基本上,我要讲的差不多都已经说过了.macro scale这层次的理论总是说起来比做起来容易.就像我说十个瞎子摸大象一样,因为没有实际运作,正是搭构起来有什么问题也没人知道,大家只能凭空猜测.若Prz大认为该平台是未来资讯交流的一个突破点,就该开始研发,而研发过程经历的探讨绝对会比此三五个人在论坛上发问还有意义.这是我个人的观点.
    世界は美しく。
    そして,人生はかくも素晴らしい
    TOP